Torture in Iraq

[weaktwos]

So, Mr. Allawi comes out yesterday and claims that the New Iraq is engaging in practices similar to that of Iraq Classic.

My reactions:
1. Not surprising when you have insurgents everywhere blowing everyone to bits. It's real hard to be kind, loving, and truly democratic in those conditions.
2. The fact that he's saying this now when the United States is suggesting an exit strategy makes me wonder if he doesn't want to drum up more support for the U.S. to continue a presence there. I don't think 2-3 years of occupation is going to change the Iraqi culture successfully.

My opinion so far, which is subject to change with more information: we should not have gone to war against Iraq, but that now that we have become involved, we need to ensure its success. However, if I come to believe that it's not possible to create a democracy in this fashion, a notion which I am leaning towards, maybe we should cut and run. Sure, we're not marines, but then that's why I'm not in the armed forces.

Comments

create a democracy ...

[sirndipiti.livejournal.com]

..tell me, please, that you don't believe that's our responsibility...please!!

imho we got into this because 'somebody' thought we needed a presence in the middle east

and we've been talking about this here in the 'group home' for a few days now

why the sudden change? -- why all the media coverage about 'possible withdrawal'? -- I'm thinking that a good percentage of our forces will be back (or off to somewhere else) before Christmas and the balance within 6 months

maybe just wishful thinking but I hope not

Re: create a democracy ...

[weaktwos.livejournal.com]

Well, whatever happens as a result of our invasion of Iraq...this charge was lead by our country, we are responsible for. It was a bad idea, for certain. Whether or not we stay in there should probably be weighed in practical terms. For example, if we withdraw, we have less soldiers deployed. However, what will happen to the middle east, and will there be spillover effects be it in oil, or more terrorism. I'm not sure, yet. But we demolished the country and killed thousands of people, lost thousands of our own. To walk away and let the country bounce back into it's barbaric state is a bit wrong.

[imlac.livejournal.com]

"If I come to believe that it's not possible to create a democracy in this fashion, a notion which I am leaning towards, maybe we should cut and run."

I can say, with some confidence, that it is NOT possible to create a democracy like this. First off, there's historical evidence: despite many attempts, there has never been a sucessful example of creating a democracy by military means in a country that has never known democracy. Then there's political theory (specifically that of Hegel, someone neo-cons cite but rarely read): political systems can't be forced on a people, they need to arise organically out of the values of the people. In the short term you can force a political system on a people, but unless their values change (something that doesn't happen at gun point) the system will collapse.

What IS possible, though is to leave Iraq with a stable government, rather than chaos, anarchy and civil war. But the problem is you can't sell that to the American people. If we came forward and said, 'okay we're giving up on democracy in Iraq, but we think we can get a benevolent, America friendly dictator in there' the people wouldn't accept it. And with good cause: that didn't work too well for Iran in the 70's.

[weaktwos.livejournal.com]

I agree that creating a democracy in this fashion is impossible. However, I think it is possible to create a more stable government for Iraq. I also think it would take decades. An America friendly dictator definitely wouldn't work. Were I an Iraqi, I'd have a hard time wanting to be friendly to America.